Seeking Full Suspension MTB Advice

"benjrblant" (benjblant) 10/05/2018 at 14:23 • Filed to: None

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I’ve been rocking the Niner SIR steel hardtail since 2013. It’s been a fantastic ride, I still enjoy the snot out of it. The 3x10 drivetrain is a smidge old, considering upgrading it to the current XT 1x11. But in the meantime, I’ve been itching to get a full suspension bike to handle some of the more extreme trails around CO/UT. Asking for general advice, but happy to hear anything you’ve got to add or just chat full suspension MTBs.

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The local shop is offering some closeout Demo Yeti SB4.5 and SB5.5 bikes for 40% off (XT drivetrain and brakes) . I’m generally opposed to carbon frames on a MTB, somewhat concerned about expensive repair bills- though I’ve never smashed my steel hardtail on anything so perhaps this concern is unwarranted.

Note that as a demo bike, it’s been rented out for a full year at this point. It should be in good shape, but won’t be without wear and tear.

Plan 2 is more spendy, but way cooler and more unique. Starling is a small shop in Bristol, UK that builds custom steel frames, and they’ve got a killer steel full suspension frame with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! :

At £2040 (Roughly 2675USD ) for the frame, it would be an expensive build, but fully custom geometry and custom color powdercoating. I’m significantly partial to steel, p articularly the R eynolds 835, and I’ve got the resources to build bikes on my own. Other pros are the single-pivot suspension which offers less maintenance and only a single set of bearings.

So, I dunno! Thoughts? Input? 

HammerheadFistpunch > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 14:42

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I hate that a quality midrange bike is 4 grand.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 14:43

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BRB, buying $4k motorcycle instead.

Nom De Plume > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 14:46

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The last thing in this world you want is Yeti demo bike.

What is your skill level and what very exactingly defined category of riding do you wish to pursue?  Will you appreciate the climbing ability of XC racer, the bombproff descending of a DH oriented bike, do you understand the difference between enduro and all mountain?

Lastly carbon mtb frames are nigh on impossible to break in a normal fall.

benjrblant > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 14:48

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It’s nuts. Insane, rather. And as Bman said, well into moto territory. I paid $4k for my first moto, but if you’re like Miss Merc, that’s maybe 4 motorcycles!

benjrblant > Nom De Plume 10/05/2018 at 14:53

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I regularly take the hardtail on some black diamonds in the front range. Certainly a challenge and slow, but I’d consider myself a respectable rider. I usually bike around 500 miles/month in commutes, worked at a shop in college, this is my living room:

Definitely not into racing and not really concerned about weight (to a degree) and generally avoid the DH specific trails. Looking for something to handle the climbs, grinds, and all-around stuff in the area. 

Eberle-Hills-Cop > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 14:57

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My downhill bike is semi-niche (local New England brand, but licensed frame design from a larger, but not big, Canadian brand) It’s a terrific bike, taken it all over to ride, but finding parts (dropouts, bearings, linkages) when shit breaks is a nightmare. I spent a month trying to find a replacement dropout last year. That’s the biggest downside i’ve found with a non-mass produced frame. Just something to consider.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 14:58

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+1 for Yeti SB series. 4.5 is a solid bike. The big bitch about that version of Yeti is no water bottle mount.

Yeti is a very high quality nitch brand but worth it.

I am currently riding a 2018 130mm travel specialized stumpjumper. The thing I am realizing is that the modern 29er’s are incredibly capable, it will be black and white vs the hard tail. The bike is also heavy, like 30 lbs. I ride it both XC and more free ride trails with jump lines and drops and all kinds of stuff. If you are expecti ng something light you will have to go to something like an Epic, but then you are so light the wheels may not take a beating.

Carbon frames are strong as f uck, don’t worry. I’ve been on carbon for three years now with no issues. I know guys sending it big time and have had no issues with carbon frames.

Also expect to pay through the nose. The Stumpjumper I have is around a $5000 bike. Don’t by a lower end bike with intent to upgrade components, components are going to kill your budget. It seems to me that a decent mid level dually is around $3500 and up.

benjrblant > Eberle-Hills-Cop 10/05/2018 at 15:00

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This is a legitimate concern, and it’s not limited to mom-and-pop frames. I’ve heard stories of Canondale dragging their feet on shipping proprietary frame replacement parts as well. I’m the type to always carry spares, so I’d likely track one down in advance.

A friend recently picked up a Proudfoot Primed , sweet steel frame. He’s local to Golden, CO and sources all of his dropouts, braze-ons, der hangers, and other parts from Paragon Machine Works so hangers are easy to find an order.

benjrblant > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 15:01

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On the flipside, you can pick up a 26" wheel bike for MAD cheap!

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:04

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tbh... i dont think you need to worry about expensive repairs on a carbon frame.... you hit it hard enough to break it... its a goner (least..... i dont think frames get fixed)

your also not very likely to break it short of getting hit by a car or crashing on a major bigly jump... (and even then... you’ll likely be worse of than the bike)

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 15:05

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I spent more on my first full suspension mountain bike than I did my first motorcycle.  

benjrblant > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/05/2018 at 15:07

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Heh, fair enough.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 15:09

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It might be midrange in price but not so much mid range in function; once you’re somewhere past $2000-2500 the return on investment goes down quite a bit. A 27.5 Fuel Ex5 Plus  from trek costs $2250 and there isn’t much you couldn’t do with a bike like that.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 15:13

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Fortunately Denver and CO have SO MANY frame shops and companies. I can’t even remember all of them. There’s no shortage of options but this also means maybe too many options.

I think my carbon damage concerns are not realistic and they offer more than I give them credit. I just like my steel hardtail so much!

HammerheadFistpunch > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:14

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Oh I know.  My bikes are both 26 and finding tires for them is becoming somewhat difficult  

HammerheadFistpunch > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 10/05/2018 at 15:15

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eh, like most things its about how much seat time and your personal preferences.  I’ve worked at bike shops for years, used to race and still ride quiet a bit, I can tell the nuance in the frame and component details.  Thats not to say that at $2000 you aren’t getting a nice bike...but the really nice bikes cost 4 grand or more for a reason.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > The Ghost of Oppo 10/05/2018 at 15:26

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i spent more on my hardtail than i did on my last 3 cars... and it was only $1500 :p

(not counting maintenance n running cost here)

Nom De Plume > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:29

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You are confusing the issue not defining it. If that makes sense.  Trail ratings are varied and not depictive of actual hazards.  The trouble I’m having here is the 4.5 & 5.5 are considerably different bikes.

Let’s try a side exam

1. When riding on a flat or downhill section the average height you jump is what?

2. When you come across a downed tree do you spend the next hour trimming and riding it?

3. How many times in the last year do you recall jumping or bunny hopping during a climb?

4. Are you as capable with flat pedals and street shoes as you are with clipless pedals and bike shoes?

5. If forced to ride a technical rock garden how capable are your trials skills?

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/05/2018 at 15:33

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Carbon is very repairable. If anything it comes back stronger.

There is a Pinkbike video, I can’t find off hand, of some pretty burly upper body strong mechanics at the Santa Cruz factory taking turns for 10 minutes smashing a carbon mtb frame against a thick metal pole before it starts to fail.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/05/2018 at 15:37

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learning all the stuffs today

honestly figured broken frames just got chucked.... dunno where i got that from.... might be outdated knowledge from the failure that was my brief run with spinergy four spokes...

but yes... i do know carbon is bloody hard to break

HammerheadFistpunch > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:41

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Thats a nice workbench solution for your truing stand.  I would like to put together a semi permanent interior repair space for bikes like that for wheel building and such.

nermal > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:43

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Buying local means overpaying.

Look into a quality internet brand like Canyon, Commencal, or YT. You’ll get wayyyyy more value for the $$$.

I bought a Commencal enduro model and it’s awesome, I recommend them bigly. If I were buying today I’d go with the 29 model instead of the 27.5 that I have, but that’s it.

Pedaling uphill sucks on mine. Smashing downhill over rocks, logs, drops, and whatever else with reckless abandon is awesome though.

benjrblant > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 15:47

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Thanks, I was on a tight budget and wanted something portable. Spent a good chunk of time checking out offerings from the big box stores (HD, Lowe’s, Sears, etc) and wasn’t happy with any of them. Stopped by Harbor Freight on a whim and was really impressed with their revised toolbox line. This one by far felt the best of anything I’d seen in the home-gamer market and it’s held up surprisingly well. The 26" box is no suitable replacement for a real workbench though.

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/05/2018 at 15:47

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Carbon bike stems and seat posts are scary for all the reasons you cited. A cut or crack is hard to diagnose and due to the way they need to be constructed they can just fail without warning. Some climbing only road bike frames are truly nuts there was so much trimmed off them.

Something like a Yeti frame had such a complex layup it will take years of steady use before the frame is broken in. This is because as this type of carbon construction deflects it gets continually stronger. Until UV or another overwhelming force disinherits it of the properties that make it so versatile.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 15:53

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My dream bike line up: Hard tail: Moots YBB

Fully Long travel: Yeti SB 5.5

Fully mid travel: Yeti SB 4.5

Fully short travel: specialized epic expert evo

I am also a fan of SRAM 1x group sets now, they are just so damn good. Get a 1x12 sram egle in GX trim if you can or better yet XO.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Nom De Plume 10/05/2018 at 15:58

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I typically do not buy used bikes unless they are garage queens. I have bought several rental bikes from my LBS for my children and they have been terrific bikes at an amazing price point, like 50% of retail. That’s my rub with this Yeti demo, it should be in the 30-50% off range not 15%. Yeti and the LBS should have a good warranty if anything breaks, that being said I always buy new bikes for myself.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/05/2018 at 15:59

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you sure that reply was meant for me?

i dont think i listed many reasons

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 16:02

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I am looking for something more xc than my current bike and I’m looking at $5500 for a carbon dualy. T hat’s more than my current car. I would also not hesitate to buy that bike.

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/05/2018 at 16:02

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Similar construction to the bike wheels you mentioned.  They say a gif is worth a thousand explanations.

HammerheadFistpunch > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 16:03

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This is why I don’t think I will be replaceing my OG Blur anytime soon.  Though I would love to make the switch to 1x11 over my 3x9

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/05/2018 at 16:05

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aah rigthyhoo.... yeah solid copy

thats how my spinergys ended.... well... i didnt even bunny hop..

rear wheel just asploded at speed

sold the front wheel after that (told the guy why too... but four spokes are just too cool to deter some people despite knowing)

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 16:06

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The 1x shimano XT is the best value out there. Put a 30 on the front and run a 10x42 on the back. It should be bolt on if the freewheel spacing is correct. IIRC 7/8/9 speed freehubs won’t take 10/11, I just depends on how old your wheel is.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 16:13

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I’ve got a friend with a Moots YBB, can confirm, pretty rad bike.

There’s a reason most of the MTBs now come with SRAM drivetrains. They’ve become shockingly good and while I generally dislike deviation from industry standards, the XD cassettes are quite nice too. I’d still take Shimano brakes every day of the week, particularly to not have DOT5.1 all over my floor/toolbox/repair stand/hands. 

HammerheadFistpunch > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 16:14

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its pretty old, but I could happily build a new rear wheel.  This will be my 3rd built on this bike.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 16:26

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I’ve got a lot of seat time myself(though way more on road bikes) and I’ve ridden, wrenched, and felt everything from a $10 goodwill special to a over $10,000 carbon full suspension bike. I’ve always thought  Once you’ve got decently damped fork and rear suspension; and Shimano disc brakes and Deore or higher groups the gains are fairly minimal. The difference from the $500 mountain bike to the $2,000 is pretty eye opening. The difference from $2,000-5,000 is less so.

But it’s just my opinion.

HammerheadFistpunch > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 10/05/2018 at 16:35

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With road bikes I agree. Not with mountain bikes. most bikes in the 2 grand range use the cheap and easy modified 4 bar without the horst link (including the fuel, because the correct way to do 4 bar is pat ented by specialized and you have to pay royalties) . You can do a lot with this design but its compromised generally.  In this case you are paying more for components which, as you said, have diminishing returns. I guess what Im getting at is you are better off paying more for a frame than components. it will make the difference. if I have a choice between a high end frame draped in Deore or a mid range frame with XT...I’d err on the side of frame everytime.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 17:00

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So my last bike had a leak in the brake hose and it leaked dot fluid inside my carbon frame for about a year until we figured out what was going on. That’s how I ended up with a new stump jumper this spring for free...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 10/05/2018 at 17:01

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There will be more dish from a wider hub on what I am assuming is 135 mm rear spacing but a 26” wheel is way stronger so it shouldn’t be an issue.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 17:03

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Yeah, I remember you mentioned that somewhere. Unfortunate but glad that Specialized’ warranty had you covered.

I do just about all of my own maintenance and repairs, plus jobs for some friends. Bleeding DOT brakes is the only task that I 100% refer to a real shop. Just not interested in dealing with it, personal preference.

HammerheadFistpunch > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 17:07

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yup, I aint afeared.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 17:13

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The bleed kits are $25 now, I’m considering since there are two hikes in my garage with sram brakes. I tend to change brake pads more often on the sram brakes.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 17:47

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You’re in MT, right? There must be some incredible biking around there. Need to make it out that way soon.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 18:58

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Not cool. Now you have me thinking about getting a new bike again 

Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 19:08

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There are much more experienced riders here than myself, I just started riding again after a decade-ish hiatus, but I’ll chip my .02c in.

When I started shopping bikes this Memorial Day past, I pretty quickly started leaning towards aluminum frames. Price played a minor roll in that opinion, but experience with carbon and aluminum in the automotive collision repair world really steered the decision. I’ve seen a couple instances of carbon cracking through, or outright snapping, during what I would consider fairly minor accidents.

The second one, especially, looks like an example where an aluminum bike would’ve ridden away with a new scratch on the chainstay (damage shots at the end of the vid, I linked to the crash) . The paranoid part of me hates the idea of losing a frame 10+ miles into the woods. I can cobble my way through most mechanical failures, frame cracking is a different story.  And with my collision repair background, I’m afraid of the hits it may have taken as a demo/rental, and the stress the frame has already seen.

I ended up on a Trek Fuel 29er that I’m still in love with four months later (coming from 26" wheels it’s absolutely hilarious what this thing will roll over ) , but Guerrilla Gravity is a brand that I’ve got in the back of my mind for a 2nd bike down the road. Denver based company, great people to work with (from what I’ve heard from numerous sources), full customization (powdercoating and parts) , and a pretty unique demo/distro setup (if you’re in CO/UT you should have no trouble finding one to check out) . They only do aluminum bikes, but have a decent offering of 27.5" and 29" bikes with both short and longer travel.

In any case, I think you’ll have an absolute blast on a full squish bike in that part of the country.  I love my Appalachian mountains dearly, but the elevation numbers you’ve got to work with there are just mind blowing to me.

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 19:15

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Definitely look into the Santa Cruz Hightower. Sounds like it would be up your alley. Santa   Cruz has a lifetime warranty on their carbon frames and they have some of the best support in the business.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 10/05/2018 at 19:33

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Yep, and yep.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/05/2018 at 22:31

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ooh, looks great. Added to my list!

gmctavish needs more space > benjrblant 10/06/2018 at 03:00

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I don’t have any advice or opinions, just to chime in that I had a 2001? I think, Rocky Mountain Element Race that I loved in high school, but I haven’t been on a bike since I sold it 4 or 5 years ago. Made here in BC, a luminum frame, Fox shock in the back, Marzocchi Bomber up front, it was hot shit in 2001 I bet. I think I paid $250 for it in 2010.

Like this but lime green

It was a lot of fun 

benjrblant > gmctavish needs more space 10/06/2018 at 13:06

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Classic! I dig it.

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 11/28/2018 at 16:22

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Hey, Can I get your opinion on this wheelset?

https://denver.craigslist.org/bop/d/stans-iron-cross-wheelset/6754539053.html

Thinking of offering $150, this would be a second wheelset for my cross/groad bike and probably be for tubeless CX tires.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 11/28/2018 at 16:51

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That looks to be a solid good deal. Make sure the hub spacing is correct and the bearings are smooth. I think they use novatech hubs which are a crap shoot on quality. 

benjrblant > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 11/28/2018 at 17:15

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Aye, the spacing and axle size is correct. I’m trying to find some affordable replacements for my Grail wheelset that took two massive dents on a commute several months ago. Bent the walls back, but the aluminum is cracked so they can’t be run tubeless.

Also considering signing up for a few cross races next season. We’ll see how that goes.